Bolesław Gleichgewicht

Welcome to all readers of the blog dedicated to Bolesław Gleichgewicht, witness the history of Polish and Jewish people in the twentieth century!

Searching online for information about Bolesław Gleichgewicht, a doctor of mathematical sciences, for sure you come across articles in the Wikipedia or other online encyclopedias such as Encyklopedia Solidarności.

(Http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boles% C5% 82aw_Gleichgewicht;

http://www.encyklopedia-solidarnosci.pl/wiki/index.php?title=Boles% C5% 82aw_Gleichgewicht:))

But they are only very dry, “chronicle” facts which have not come near you real-life of professor Gleichgewicht.

To learn more about his life, you could read his autobiography, but only for a period of war. Due to the fact that the two parts are available on the Internet:

http://www.andsol.org/cudze/BG/spis.html

During the interview is not touched upon the experiences of soldiers, in our conversation we wanted to know the life of Bolesław Gleichgewicht with more private parties, to present his thoughts, opinions, personal stories.

We hope that our questions and answers of prof. Gleichgewicht in an interesting way you present the fate of Polish Jewish origin) – and in the twentieth century, without doubts they were not quiet and boring …

We wish you a nice reading!

Bartek and Grzesiek

We: Maybe from the beginning – how to look your life in prewar Warsaw (personal life, your origin)?
Prof: Maybe I’ll start about my origin. My paternal grandfather was undoubtedly one of the richest men in Warsaw. He died six years before I was born. As his fortune to inherit 13 children, my parents were not already so wealthy. Then there changed geopolitical conditions, eliminating the Russian market, and I must add that my uncles and father were not as resourceful, but they were educated (my father had completed polytechnic in Germany), then there was a crisis in 1929, and all this meant that we were not very wealthy (although I admit that in early childhood we were very wealthy). As far (soon) as I can remember, my life has been associated with historical events, and to admit that I have a very good memory – I remember the president Narutowicz, the May coup, Brest case, Pilsudski’s funeral – it is a historical frame in which I lived and existed.
However, my personal life .. so we (were doing that summer I rode ) we could afford to go to Sopot and Skuszewo – village near Wyszków. I have remember all these nice places and have good memories.
I started to (teach privately at ) private studies being taught by my cousin MarySzejman. She was a very educated person, a great English teacher and actually gave preparation for high school to all my cousins. I was her favorite student. She taught me for three years. Why? You could go to school, and then to high school, but public school can be undone at home, to prepare and pass an entrance examination. My parents just went that way, my cousin gave me great preparation, in 1928 I got to Nicholas Rey high school in Warsaw. It was one of the best private high schools in Poland – in my opinion it was the second, after Stefan Batory high school in Warsaw – it was run exceptionally wellI (running modally). Students had to pass then the test of arithmetic, the Polish language and religion.
W:Did you consider yourself a Polish Jew or a Pole of Jewish origin? Can you tell us about the motives of your conversion to Catholicism?
P: Definitely I am a Pole of Jewish origin. As regards the second part of the question, it was the result of very personal experiences and deep reflection. I find it hard to talk about it, but I can say that when I was in the gulag, there was a boy from Grodno, also of Jewish origin (Lolek) and we together sang every night, “God, who have Poland.” I admit that I am not a religious man, but some spiritual needs have always existed in me. In addition, not much connects me with the Mosaic religion. Not only that, Catholicism, the clergy played a very important role in the struggle for Polish independence. My wife is an Orthodox, she is not religious. The children were baptized, they were at communion. Only in 1968, they found out about their origins. It is interesting that my son’s first wife was a Catholic and the second is Jewish, the children from his first wife are Catholics, and from other Jews. It is really amazing that we celebrate Catholic holidays, but also participate in Jewish holidays. There is nothing extraordinary, there is no need to talk about it (even talk at all), it is a family. I hope that once people grow up to the fact that these things will cease to divide. Finally, we pray to the same God.

Prof: I will say a few words about my high school. It was Lutheran, which does not mean that it was a religious school. It was very progressive and tolerant. Roughly a 1:1 ratio, Catholics with Protestants learned in it. There were also some Jews, or people of Jewish origin, but their number was limited.
W: Limited because of their origin or predisposition?
P: While my high school in contrast to the other was tolerant of the Jews was not too many – in the words of the director in a conversation with my mother, “I can’t create sons of israel school named after Rej”. However, this school was not anti-Semitic signs.
This school was on the Małachowski Square, at the Evangelical church, which still exists. Protestants were very enlightened people, including Bursch’s family, who became the head of the Protestant community,even wife of prof. Marczewski (rector of the university) came from Bursch’s family . They behaved (properly) during the occupation, because they were encouraged and then forced to sign “Volkslista”, but because they refused, all the brothers Bursch’s ended up in concentration camps. The school had excellent teachers, there was a lot of doctors, there were docents, so it was a wonderful school. It brought up to me in the spirit of patriotism, but it was not a spirit of nationalism. All this was subdued and gave a beautiful fruit. School I was finished in 1937, she has given me a great deal of knowledge. In the same year Istarted the University of Warsaw, faculty of Mathematics, physics. Even as a high school student I had a very high knowledge of physics, not too familiar with the special theory of relativity. When it comes to everyday life, it was a typical student life – student, so colleagues, friends, meeting friends, going to the skating rink, where I broke my leg, interest in football (from then until now, I’m a fan of the “Legia Warszawa”) – In high school I thought that I play well (now I see that badly), but I played very well chess and my party of that period (the next runner Poland, Gawlikowski) was even published in the newspaper.
W: You were very good dancer …
P: Yes … And how do you know?
W: I read your book.
P: Well, yes! In fact, I very well danced. Also I interested in classical music and dance. On New Year’s Eve 1937/1938 I won at the ball  competition of the tango. Tango has been my specialty, but I could dance very well English waltz. In 1939 appeared a new hobby in my life, but unfortunately because of the war, it did not develop not developed, only blossomed after her, and I say they were mountains. To this day I love them and miss them most. The Tatra and the Giant Mountains I know very well. I was walking through them until 2005. Even after the war of 1960 I spent every summer in the mountains. Even when I went to Norway, to children who are granted political asylum, sometimes I spent a month in the Tatra Mountains, often 2 months. It was really a great hobby in my life.
W: Which books did you read as child?
P: As a child I read a lot, if I had more time and desire than in later years. Of course, I started from the children’s books, later there were Sienkiewicz, Żeromski, Prus, Mickiewicz. Partly this was required in school, partly for myself. In addition, I read contemporary literature, once familiar and fashionable writers, now virtually forgotten. For example, Jacob Wassermann –whoever I ask nobody knows that name. Then it was highly valued, even if I remember correctly, he was a candidate for the Nobel Prize. I read a lot of his books, I read a less popular Arnold Zweig and his brother Stephen. I read Barbusse, Roger M. du Gard “Family Tibeau”. The Book was delightful, but I did not like the movie. I also read the Soviet writers (I had initially left-wing views) and the popular science literature such as Wertestein (his son was my friend), Moszkowski (biographer of Einstein). All these books have influenced my development.
W: Which role models, authorities did you have in your life? They may be people from the world of e.g. art, not necessarily science, just who you consider someone worth emulating?
P: This is probably the hardest question. There were several great, brilliant mathematicians and physicists who are worth paying homage to, such as Albert Einstein and Newton as physicists. Mathematicians – Gauss, Riemann, Hilbert, Poincaré. These are my ideals in science, I know their works, it brings pride to us as people, that such minds have ever existed. Authorities from other areas… It is hard to say, it does not mean that I do not have any, but you need to single out … I will not single out any politicians, you may be astonished, though I respect many of those who were and are now, but the arts … For whole my life, I have been absolutely fascinated by Dostoevsky – the most among all writers, I appreciate Kafka very much, and one more from the Russians – Turgenev. I was very interested in music – I love Bach, Beethoven and Mozart, but it’s probably just like everyone who knows music just a little. That really were my authorities and I think I mentioned all of them.

W: Could you tell me about customs in your home? What languages do your parents know?
P: Of course. You could say that I come from a Jewish family, but completely assimilated. This means that in our house tradition was not respected and what could be called Jewishness. While lived grandmother (father’s mother), that is, until 1928 (she was a very religious Jew), celebrated the Sabbath prayer (Friday evening), celebrated Jewish holidays, including Passover. Very fond memories of those events. On Yom Kippur were fasting parents. In our house we always talked in Polish, my grandmother knew Yiddish but she always talked to me in Polish. My father also knew Yiddish, even he sometimes had reading the newspaper issued by the party Bund (the equivalent of the PPS), of which in his youth he was a member – even though he was so rich, he was the socialist. But back to the topic, after the death of my grandmother died out in our Jewish traditions, holidays, Saturdays, etc., but parents still fasted on Yom Kippur, even though the father was completely unbelieving, and the mother said she believed in God but did not go nowhere pray. My mother did not eat ham, but I gladly gave had it. My father did not pay attention to these things, I gladly ate the ham, because I liked it. My parents never hid our origins. I never knew Yiddish my mother could only speak in this language, but my father probably knew Hebrew, Yiddish, but I’m not sure, he knew perfectly well the Russian and German, because as I mentioned was educated in Germany. Sure it seems strange now, but as someone came to us from Germany, he spoke only in German, for example, Mr. Domanski – he always had talking to me in German. Mother spoke perfect French, Russian ( I remember when she sang different love stories in Russian) and German. In Rej (school) I could choose German or French, I chose German. My father did not belong to any zionist’s organizations, religious, etc. We thought is always for the Poles. In our family it was a lot of people baptized, including my mother’s brother, he is married to a Catholic, it was a great shock to his mother’s family. Mother’s family was more polonized than father’s, but nevertheless, the wedding was a great shock, firstly because of the difference of nationality, secondly, because she was a maid in his house. He indeed was a very able man, he was to take his secondary school final exams, but ran away from home, so it was great romance … He survived the occupation. Maybe I’ll go a little forward, but I have to say that a great many relatives in Poland, survived the occupation, some even without changing their religion. I had many fellow Jews, no matter for me was the origin or religion, but let us say frankly that prevailed before the war in Poland was a very strong anti-Semitism. It was twofold – one state, intensified especially after Pilsudski’s death, especially when it evolved into the National Radical Camp (ONR divided into ONR Falanga and ABC, headed by first Piasecki, both were terrible, they organized the pogroms, etc.) then was a very big social breakdown. You can call this anti-Semitism “traditional” and were beaten in the streets, and schools were terrible. In any case, I had many fellow Catholics, Protestants and Jews, I myself was the Jewish faith. I was not tied to that religion, after the war, changed it to a Catholic, I was just closer. Well, anti-Semitism, as I said, was very common at university. First of all, it was difficult to enter them, there were the departments where there were accepted no Jews at all (including law, medicine), the other was a limited number of admissions (for example, my office – Physics – accepted on the list but there was only one without my “suspicious” name), department, where there were no limits, such as mathematics. Many young people at that time had studing abroad, initially in Germany, later only in France and Italy.

W: Getting back to your house and family – we know that your father even changed his name.
P: When my father was born he was called Abram, later changed his name to Adam. I did not know that my mother since birth was also called Maria, I learned about it when got a letter from the ghetto. Jews were not allowed during the occupation to use the names “gentile,” that if anyone had another name previously, it had to go back. Mother initially signed the letters to me, “Maria”, and then I see – “Mindla”! My father again became Abram. I am from the beginning of my name Boleslaw, probably I should be Isaac, because was in this time the idea that every man hadto be Isaac, and woman Sarah.
W: What was the reason for changing names?
P: This was the result of a certain Polish ostentation, besides having Jewish names was associated with a kind of embarrassment. Some changed their surnames. For example, my colleague was called Hosenpud, later changed his name to Horewicz. Names were changed very often.

W: What was it like meeting friends at that time?
P: They were then called “evenings”. Sometimes, these evenings were organized by the high schools. The orchestra was ordered, organized with a female high school, you could come with a partner. There were dances. All atmosphere full of culture, my friend joked that the teacher would walk with a ruler and measure the distance between the partners. This obviously was a joke, but the male relationships – men’s watchful eye they looked. In a class held in the dance classes on Saturdays (“Mazurek”, “Oberek”, “Krakowiak”, “Polka”), and he ended the evening, where we invited young ladies to dance. Well I learned these dances, but since they haven’t been danced, I forgot them.
Dating – here depends on which class. Because interest in girls starts at 5, 6 class. Then begin love affairs, meetings, (joint) going to the cinema together, to the candy (there you had to have some money ….) For me it has changed, now everything is more open, interpersonal, then it was more intimate nature. In high school so they looked crooked eye, but understood that it is associated with age. Rey High School had its school estate, at Kąty station, close to Mount Calvary, a beautiful place. He often had classes, excursions – all conducive to the development of relationships between us and from there I have the greatest memories. Paid a little for the stay, and in the winter or summer, you can be there to spend your entire vacation. Once my mother in 1930 sent me there for two months. To this day, nothing has left from this place.
W: Did you go to a male school?
P: Yes, mixed high schools were a huge sensation at the time.
W: What was it like to interact with girls from female high schools?
P: Beside us was a female Vasa high school (Lutheran). Of course there were social threads between our schools. We also had a common for both schools rehearsal room, I remember Klarysa, probably half of Rej high school was in love with her. One of my colleagues asked me once if I loved Klarysa. I answered “no.” He was very surprised. Near Kąty, probably in Piaseczno,we planned dates, girls come to us or we to them. Formed pairs, I was still child, I had 10-11 years, but then older collegues were picking up ladies.
W: And your own projects, or, for example did you go with colleagues at the female school …
P: Of course, as I had in high school some sympathy for her there are often waiting, usually knew more or less, which ends with lessons to meet.
W: Did your first love come from this period?
P: Yes. Once, watching the slide, I saw this young lady, named Hanka Gelbron and, as I stated, terribly falling in love with her. Today, a little of that laugh, then it was a complete platonist. But after a year when I broke my leg on the skating rink, visited me quite a number of slides for the company, including her. However, we did not together, her fate is not known to me. About 15 years ago by chance I got to know that she get killed in the ghetto.
This is serious since it was the Inka, had incredible success, I also was her victim. Terribly in love with her, initially with reciprocity. I remember being in her apartment was in a terrible mood. She wanting to cheer me up, said: “As soon as you parade for other devices.” She began to call to their fans, “Listen, let’s meet here and here” And so after an hour pile of boys went back and forth, and I stood at the window and saw this parade. Indeed, my mood has improved greatly. Then there were more serious knowledge, more or less until the war. But I remember Inke, because it was a very strong feeling. There was also a story that me and my friend were falling in love with the same girl. They got married, and when I fled to the Soviet Union, them I lived in Łuck.

W: What was your first encounter with manifestations of antisemitism?
P: That was before high school. Once I went along with the maid on the devotion to the church and at some point I didn’t knelt. Came to me then a student and said, “Let the Jews do not come to church.” During the trip to Skruszewo a peasant came up to me with a whip and hit me, insult me, too. In high school, some friends showed their dislike of Jews, this was the second type of anti-Semitism, more personal. But worse was the first – there are fights, beatings, etc. Members and supporters of the ONR wore green ribbons, and later “Chrobry’s swords”. The school was strictly punished wearing such a symbol and manifestation of anti-Semitism. I remember that one day the tutor came to us and said that ONR’s leaflets were scatter in the locker room and asked whether we know who did it. We knew, of course, but we answered that it did not – we thought that after all we acted like friends. On the part of teachers’ expressions of resentment or hostility was not, they were generally enlightened people, and the school was like in those times very tolerant, Jews felt there really well.
Only once there has been such a bad case. Namely, in our class was the historic seat of wheels, there was a lot of portraits of Polish kings. We put pins in these portraits for fun, so that, instead of in front, hung sideways. None of us thought that it might be perceived as anti-national activities. So in any event, the teachers received so that. The tutor asked, who did it. Admitted to five people, including three Jews. Then he said: “It is interesting that among the five individuals were three Jews.” But the somebody replied: “Not among the five who had done so, because they made everyone only among the five who were admitted.” He’s really sorry because I know this because confided to another teacher who said a secret to us. It is true that we do not apologize, but I had no pretensions to him.
W: And anti-Semitism at the university?
P: The university was awful. I started studying in 1937, when under pressure from the ONR was introduced places of Ghetto. The index was alert “in the pews even” or “odd place in the pews.” Places odd part of the right side of the transition in the auditorium (as seen by the student) wwere a place of Ghetto, which is intended only for Jews. We did not want to sit in these places, and protested, standing in the aisle. If anyone of us sat down at an even, the militia came, mostly from another department, so they did not recognize (in our case were former lawyers – the largest mob), and began beating him. Armed with rubber batons, or bamboo sticks, and sometimes they had brass knuckles, sometimes with batons drove pieces of razor blades.
I’ll tell you about my case. Chapter society was complete, but points out that there were many Poles who did not agree to such discrimination, and protested against it, sitting in odd places. Not all students were anti-Semitic, but most of them were under the pressure of moral or physical (including those who were beaten showed sympathy to the Jews).
W: The teachers did not protest against such treatment of the Jews at the university?
P: Several protested (including professors Kotarbiński, Michałowski, Czyżewski) and later, made the laugh of them in leaflets. They depicted the three professors in the deliberations on how to force the Poles to seats along with the Jews. Was presented one as a dog with his face, second as a monkey and third that he was obese, as a pig. When I was wounded, advised on my accident three students (one of them was a daughter of the famous socialist Zaremba), also released leaflets ridiculing them.

W: Tell us about your assault.
P: Beaten me on Saturday 19.11.1938. In this day for lunch were a few kin. I did not want to go to class, even my mother encouraged me, I was at home, but decided nevertheless to go to lectures. When entering the university, I noticed a strange-behaving students. It was the militia, which occupied the starting positions. Classes had adjunct Szpierajn, came from a family of baptized, survived the occupation in Warsaw. On paper – Marczewski (Polish mathematician, who later became rector of the University of Wroclaw). I stood in the aisle, it seems, the only one. Suddenly came about 10 well-built men and came to me. One of them came up to me and shouted “Raus!”. Then I went to the middle of the room, because I did not want to fall on the bench. Then, this militia surrounded me and probably was the worst moment, when nothing was happening, dead silence in the auditorium, Marczewski did not know what to do. Finally, someone punched me in the mouth. I ran into another, from a player, and the situation was repeating several times, finally fell to the ground. Militia came, finally Marczewski asked if anyone might help me. Then came to me a student, not young and he said that he is a doctor. He helped me get up, I feared an ambush in the hallway, but no problem I got home. That was my last seizure, and later taught only at home with notes from colleagues, scripts, etc. And I came to the exams. Later I met this doctor in the tram, he spoke with great indignation about this assault.  I met Marczewski in Wroclaw in 1956. He said that of that event will never forget. In any event, were sometimes worse adventures, such as a student of biology Pietruszka. Then was a week without Jews. Guards were standing, but he somehow went (he had to, because it seemed that day exam). They caught him in the middle, terribly beaten, so he had a broken jaw, and threw down the stairs. There were also fatalities, also studying at that time was extremely dangerous. There were also share a day without Jews, whether this week without Jews. They organized the students themselves, they were also originators. Fateful day was 10 November, the death anniversary of Stanisław Wacławski. He was a student in Vilnius, who took part in anti-Semitic brawls, and during one such adventure was probably struck a rock and died. He was considered to be the victim of the Jews. The anniversary of the death were organized masses and it was generally a day without Jews.
It reminds me of a some 10 November. I did not go to class then. Lecture from higher algebra had Samuel Dickstein – a very well deserved for a man of science, an extraordinary patriot (he gave the university his library.) He was already elderly, were more than 80 years (it seems probably that much, I am 91) and was deaf. Beautifully lectures, joked that he was not so much to prove theorems, which agitating for their veracity. In any event, the militia came to class and began shouting “Beat Dickstein”. He did not hear the inquired, “What is it, louder.” Finally came associate professor Sachs (an eminent Polish mathematician, was killed during the occupation), took the old man by the arm and led out of the auditorium. Dickstein had never not come to class. All year we had lecturers from higher algebra, in the end it was Sierpiński ( an eminent Polish mathematician). You could say that Dickstein was lucky, because he died in the first days of occupation – not live to see this terrible period. No one would have bothered his age, probably would share the fate of others in a concentration camp.
Only once I had to be together with the ONR, and we together protested. We protested against the anti-Polish ventures at the Technical University of Gdansk in 1939. Then participated in this great demonstration as well as Jews and ONR-sheep. Nothing unites like a common enemy …

We: Which was your attitude to the duties in school, and in uniwersity?
Prof: I learned well, If I had more applied, I would have been even better. I applied primarily to the items that interested me and the rest…. Before the final exams I had applied and I had very good results. I admit, without false modesty, that I was very capable, above all I had a very good memory. When I was a little boy, under the influence of my cousin, Józiek Holzmann (he was very talented, but lazy and he was at the Polytechnic on one of the faculty, on the other, had not finished, just in Lwów put under pressure the Soviets to the study) became interested in astronomy, then in high school I was very interested in chemistry. Perhaps under the influence of a teacher, Sigmund Scheller (very nice teacher), and maybe because I had a predisposition towards the sciences. Even I was chairman of the chemical circles. Then I passed my love of chemistry to physics, I must admit that I had with this band a wealth of knowledge, I became comfortable in this high school diploma, I gave private lessons with her, truly solve the task, I had read a lot, I knew a lot about the theory of relativity (special, with a total I knew in general).

I passed the matriculation exams test of physics and  history, to the astonishment of my teacher this item (history), prof. Bartel, with who I had contact even after the war. Well, history does not belong to objects, which made me very interested, but I have read many historical books, such as two volumes of “History of the French Revolution,” William Bloss. In high school I had a test on “Transformation of the Polish nation after the January Uprising.” I wrote eight pages of graph paper, not even anything I could write up. The day when the future results of baccalaureate, just as I was not at school, but I know that professor Bartl came and he said that as the only player from the class 5 and he read my work. It was then that part of the students sympathize with the ONR felt offended, because I wrote that the Polish independence movement came out of Marxism (although the teacher said that I was right.) In any event, I made a sensation as soon as I came to school, it Bartl told me privately, “Bolek, you should take a history..” At graduation, I chose the topic of the April Constitution. I was her strong opponent, but this is not done at the high school – I praised her very much. I wrote 10 pages, not eight as before, 10 pages! I got back 5, also did a great historian of me. This went badly for me latin, I did not like this item (from the latin I had 4). Besides, a latin teacher did not like me. Even I remember why. Well, everybody had to have necessarily a book, and I did not have, because I had stolen. When asked why I do not have the book, rather than respond to that stolen, I said “Pluck them.” He was terribly mad, even wrote in the daily classroom “Gleichgewicht uses vulgar words.” Of course, it was not a vulgar word. The german went well I even would go to Sopot, where I used to use this language, but then I started to leave the German. At graduation, I wrote four pages of the development of german, I got fourth partially forgot the language, because it is known that during the war I suffered a lot because of this nation … But today I speak a little german. I participated in a physical ring, also I have been in the room, which led Jacobi – math teacher. He often played chess, after I became a chess champion Rey, prof. Jacobi often played with me. The longer I played, the more I won. I played well, even the “Morning Courier” printed in his edition of my party with Pawlikowski. In the Soviet Union I played a lot of chess, I rode to tournaments, not only on them I had the opportunity to meet and deal with world famous chessplayers. After returning to the Polish I have not played chess, I did not have time – I lost so many years of life, I wanted to finally deal with mathematics.

W: Returning to study – you said that you are initially studied physics. In that case, why then do you study math?
P: By saying that I was interested in physics, I was thinking of theoretical physics. It was only later I realized that I was interested in its mathematical structure. After the war he studied in Odessa, at the beginning of the Faculty of default. After three years I went to full-time and up to 1 semester of 3 years (or 5 semester), all departments I had a common lectures, after five semesters had to select a specific office. In the meantime, more and more interested in math. Even with a colleague Yuri (later a professor at Odessa), I founded a student math; I was chairman, and secretary Yuri. Moreover, in Odessa at that time were outstanding mathematicians such as Krein (world-renowned mathematician, in my opinion one of the greatest twentieth century) and his school, so Lewin (specialized in the analytical functions of a complex variable, had a very strong influence of me) , Rutman (my thesis supervisor). So, mathematics has become very high and very low physics. In addition, I realized that my Polish and Jewish origins (despite tolerances, which are boasted of the USSR, the country met with anti-Semitism and all kinds of discrimination very often) may preclude the making of a doctorate. Left over so learning in school. As a physicist I would have to carry a lot of experience, and I admit that the practical side of physics did not interest me, I did not have a predisposition to it (in physic’s experiences I have two left hands). So I wanted to be a math teacher. Going further, physics has become a science if not political, it is of national importance (such as atomic physics, nuclear). So I would not have any opportunities. Indeed, I realized this when I wanted to go to the place where Soviet submarines were constructed, there needed to mathematicians. But I was not taken, although the Jews were taken there, it was not taken there from the Polish people. In any case, I chose mathematics and do not regret. Besides, in Wroclaw also I found a very good school of mathematics, including Hugo Steinhaus (thanks to him I got a job as an assistant at the University of Breslau, he met me with prof. Marczewski, we were friends until his death.)

W: Going back to school days, you mentioned about his leftist views. What was yours-of-school activities, linked to politics?
P: Being strongly influenced by the leftist-minded colleagues, since 1934 I acted in the Revolutionary Association of School Youth indigent. Membership in this organization was a natural reaction, a response to fascism, anti-nationalism, ONR, discrimination. It was an alternative for someone who wanted to live like an honest man. Belonged to this organization very well known people such as Jerzy Morawski (after the war he was secretary of the Central Committee, expelled him at the end of Gomułka), he was a liaison Rej and district office. This organization had a central administration, district boards and wheels. Circle in the gymnasium Rej arranged myself, I was also secretary of a top secret organization in our school. We had a very interesting links. The first of these was Morawski (ps “Michał”), and subsequently became Jerzy Kamil Weintraub (former Rejak, very talented poet, who unfortunately had not developed his talent, was killed during the war – seem to be stuck on while shaving and got gangrene ), then I do. After being a liaison was chief technician for two districts (the responsibility of the technician had such placarding, painting). It was a very stressful job, I did not get enough of neurosis (constant fear of arrest, ejection from the gymnasium). When I finished high school courses were organized for the most active activists, including me. On these courses taught include Starewicz (CC Secretary to 1968). Staff prepared us for the “Life” – an organization inspired by the Communist Union of Polish Youth and the Polish Communist Party. On these courses was also Rysiek Perl, father of John Lityński (hero of the August opposition), nephew of Felix Perl (colleague and friend of Piłsudski).
I was not an activist, “Life, then I broke with Communism. Why? First, I started teaching, and secondly it was in 1937 – the period of the Moscow trials (the period known. “Jeżowszczyzna” – from the name of the absolute angle of the Russian people, then led to the death of the greatest revolutionary activists, no war could destroy the army, so – for example, from 5 marshals were killed 3), then I started to doubt the communism, I saw, where it leads. Later stay in the Soviet Union expanded my disappointment and confirmed my belief that (during the war I was taken to the Komsomol, after the war Iwas taken to the party). I knew the relatives of the executed activists in Moscow, for example, the CPP’s sister famous communist stewpan. When I returned to the Polish I told everybody, what it means the Soviet Union. To wait for being in opposition, after independence, took an active part in political life, I was a member of the Democratic Union, then the Freedom Union – that was completely changed, “front”. After all I was not ashamed that I had communist views. You could say that it was a mass phenomenon – many people initially were in favor of communism, and then his hot opponents. Just understand what that means, some things are better seen from the inside … Besides, let us remember that in those times be a member of the party did not mean to share her views, for it meant a lot to ask (as the professor said from Odessa), a political execution, Sometimes the political is not ended.

W: You mentioned 1968. How did you and your family survive this year?
P: I had not had any trouble at the university, even though I signed the famous Faculty Council Resolution condemning these events, anti-Semitism, there anti-inteligents. Very experienced these events, I had a very unpleasant phone calls and other very ugly things. Steinhaus asked me if I do not think that I should leave. I replied that it did not. Also, another very distinguished mathematician, asked me a similar question. I had to seriously reflect on their lives. I came to the conclusion that I should not leave. I was almost 50 years and I had to start life again from the beginning, so many times already started. In addition, woke up in me a desire that other one dirty resistance. I decided to not stepping down. In addition, many of my friends also decided stay here. I mentioned it to stay in the USSR, this terrible nostalgia and I thought that everything starts a new, this time without a chance to return. I thought that this is my country and regardless of whether I will be better or worse, here is my place. However, not only did I regret to those who left, but I understand them – many of them lost their jobs, prospects for the future, while others feel deeply offended by this situation. Also I felt very offended. I do not think that 1968 was the action of the entire nation, rather gestures of people sympathetic to the party. I was and I really do not regret. I do not regret, because I was among friends. Besides, I was able to take part in something big, namely in the fight against communism. Then, of course, I did not know it yet.

W: What was 31/08/1939 and 01/09/1939 from the perspective of your?
P: Yes, these days to remember. My father was the head of civil defense unit of neighboring houses, and I our house. We had set the night guard at the gatehouse. 31.08 I went with some colleagues to the janitor. The situation was very anxious, do not know what might be expected, I was convinced that there will be war. Early night ran very excited and told my father that the war will not. He claimed that the mere fact that the Polish ambassador to the talks, it seems, Ribbentrop, that negotiate, indicates that the war will not. It was a bright moment on Aug. 31, because the same day he was restless, had already been mobilized, digging ditches (not yet antitank, nobody thought that the German tanks may soon get to Warsaw), in addition to normal day. 1.09 in the morning I went back to duty. Suddenly, sirens sounded (I thought it was a dummy attack, even it was incomprehensible to me that the exercises can be done in such a tense international situation.) After a while my father ran, now terribly upset and said “War.” We kept in accordance with the instructions of the gate closed. In a moment you could hear gunshots zenitówek emerging German aircraft. Eventually, people began to fuss, “Lord, when you release us, we are in a hurry to work!” I am on a “not let you go you.” “What? Exercises to arrange the hell … “” I do not exercise, the war! “Yet I threatened to respond as scaremongering. Apparently after a while came to him the meaning of heard shots. So for me the war began.

W: At the end of your book you wrote that you considered the war as a personal defeat, despite the fact that the Allies won the war, Poland regained – at least partially – its borders, that personally you also weren’t injured. Do you still maintain this opinion?
P: This opinion I expressed in the second part of my book, which is available on the Internet – the whole book consisted of two parts, but later publisher split it in half, the first part ends with the escape from the camp.
Yes, the war was won, I was one of the victorious soldiers, but for me personally it was a defeat, because then I was left without anything, I was in a country that was not my homeland – later somehow became the second homeland, but I could not return to Poland, for which I longed. All this caused some kind of discomfort and so I thought that my personal war was lost.
Now, however, I do not look at this period this way. The victory of the Allies is also my work, on the other hand – some years have passed and I came back to Poland, fulfilled my dream. It is true that it was not a free Poland, it was not entirely sovereign, but had an emblem, anthem, flag, people used Polish there. I visited Warsaw, which I left a dozen years ago, I began to live a normal life here among my “friends”. And then, yes, there were difficult moments, the fight in the conspiracy before “Solidarność”, then for “Solidarność”, during the martial law… But I did a PhD and became an assistant professor of mathematics, I worked in a profession that I love very much. I published my works, I worked in science, to which I devoted myself, I taught and brought up students. I also rose my own children …
Gathering it together, I believe that my life has not past in vain, it is fulfilled, both personally and professionally. I do not like the word “career” because it suggests some bad connotations, but I understand it as a course of professional, scientific, research, etc – and it all went well. I can say that when on my 80th anniversary an interviewer asked me whether my life is happy, I answered, yes.

We: You returned to the Poland in 1956. Why only then?

Prof: I dreamed of returning to my homeland since the beginning of my stay in the USSR. I was in the Red Army, and I think I did well, because I fought for the Polish, against nazism. However, after the war, I could not return to the Poland (I had the nationality of the Soviet Union) and further, that that opportunity is increasingly less likely. I ran even a nostalgia – very often I had dreams that I am at home, usually on the same site (corner of st. Royal and the suburbs of Krakow, Warsaw), when I woke up and I saw cruel reality. I really wanted to return to the Poland, but that I did not succeed, all hope is lost. I thought about returning to the country in the category of unrealistic dreams and not reality. But in 1956, after returning from a conference in Mikołajewo, the wife said to me that a Polish friend came and said that they are able to return to Polish. It was an incredible moment for me. I started a very difficult effort, which lasted half a year. I saw that the return is realistic. The greatest happiness of my life is that I was able to return to the Poland. First, what is to be said, I love this country. Secondly, I wanted to break with the Soviet Union, which was more horrible Third, I wanted to do a research career. W: What were your thoughts about the future of Poland earlier and what are they like now? P: Let’s start from the time when I returned to Poland in the 50s – the difference between Poland and the Soviet Union was huge, it was much more freely here than in the USSR, but watching the development of this system of governing, I saw that the system is not viable. Despite everything, I thought it would last a very long time and I will never see any ‘dawn of freedom’. Why? Mighty Soviet Union, armed with a powerful army (army and police), the security police, a great propaganda apparatus, the great inertia of all this, which ensures stability, unfortunately… In Poland there have been significant changes, there came a new generation of people who did not know what democracy was – some of them reconciled with it, they simply wanted to live happily, so again a certain inertia. Take into account the strength because of propaganda, because the thought that everything is really stable. I did not believe that in Poland, during my lifetime, such changes will come, I believed that it will not be like that forever, but still for a very long time… Then, when ‘Solidarity’ appeared, there was also great hope, something began to happen, to change, in Poland great freedom was coming to existence, then this martial law was introduced and all this positive energy broke. It was this pain, this despair of martial law, now terror and violence are coming and how much will we need to wait for some next events? In the year ‘87-’88, I started to notice that this hard period starts to end, the communist regime in Poland will not last a long time, while in the Soviet Union it will outlive me and my children – it is a heavy, inertial mass, moreover, I knew this country and I imagined what was happening there. Indeed, ‘89 – I could not say that I predicted what will happen, but I felt that it all is going to die – then the communism in Poland fell down. Unfortunately it is not collapsing in the USSR or in other countries – its satellites, everyone thought that there communism will last a long time. I am happy that I managed to live to see the moment when totalitarianism in Poland collapses and Poland regains its freedom, regardless of the dangerous neighbor – I realized that if we have bad relations with the USSR, then God knows what will happen, maybe events similar to those in Czechoslovakia or Hungary? I had not foreseen all this, what happened in ‘91. Once perestroika began, once Gorbachev came, only a blind man did not see that this is already a bit different system, that the communism there has softened. Gorbachev did not want to dismantle communism, I am convinced that he wanted to save it, he saw that it is incapable of living in a ‘Stalinist’ or ‘post-Stalinist’ manner, you must release the pressure a little bit. In August ‘91 I again, as always, was in Zakopane. One day I wanted to go into the mountains and then I heard what was happening in the Soviet Union – I wringed my hands and said ‘Today I am not going anywhere’. Why? “Home detention” for Gorbachev, Yanayev coup in Moscow – it seemed that the bright plans for future are over, but then what will happen to Poland and other countries? So I stayed home and waited for new information – nothing was happening, the next day – also nothing – a strange coup! And when finally, on the third day Yanayev committed suicide, others were arrested, and Yeltsin stood on a tank – then it was clear that communism is over there and it actually ended by signing in the Bialowieza Forest a solution of dissolution of the USSR. Now I evaluate the situation like this – Poland is on a good path of development. We do not have a communist regime, we are a free country. We can do various clever (and, unfortunately, stupid also) things, and we use this possibility, fortunately we are the only ones responsible for this. I think that if we do not unleash something what Mazowiecki called “Polish hell” when he came to rule, which can actually harm us much, as well as our development, our reputation – if we continue to develop like now, I believe that Poland has a great future. I will say straight away that I attach great importance to the forthcoming presidential election. I will not conceal that I am completely on the side of Komorowski, I believe that PiS and its leader would be a harmful way of Polish development. W: So which party do you know sympathise with, and which parties did you support earlier? Do you agree to place this statement in our interview? P: I’ve done worse things already… Yes, I agree. Previously, I was a founding member of ‘ROAD’, a Civic Movement of Democratic Action, and soon this party, together with the people of Mazowiecki that have been following him since the time of the first elections (he was not elected), created the Democratic Union. I was a member of it, I was a President of the Union Revisional Commission. Later, Democratic Union became the Union of Freedom, the Liberals came to us (you can say the current PO) – and I was one of the highest authorities of Lower Silesia. More-less, when the Union of Freedom was about to dissolve, I stopped to actively engage in politics,I was 80 years old and I believed that it was enough. Now I’m not a member of any party, not even a very strong supporter, however I have been sympathising for quite a long time with the Civic Platform (PO), when it comes to the existing parties. I wish it won the election, both the presidential and parliamentary – I am not, I say, enthusiastic about the party, but I am a sympathizer.